Israel has killed at least 8000 children in two months through indiscriminate bombing and forcing doctors to abandon babies in incubation units so they starve and die alone and rot.
Fuck the Israeli government. Israel has made itself a hotbed of terrorism.
This is literally the same logic. Learn to think better. Stop justifying genocide.
You would have, as Israel did, supported the apartheid south African government and condemned the ANC for being violent.
Zogby of Zogby polling did multiple polls of both Palestinians and Israelis and found that both supported a single state solution.
The difference is that the Palestinians were talking about a single state with equal rights for all, and the Israelis were talking about a single state where all the Palestinians were driven out.
You want peace? Recognize you’ve fucked an ethnic group over, and try to make reparations for what was done. Include them as an equal voice in the process.
And before you talk about how they’re enemies and you can’t make peace with them, enemies are explicitly who you make peace with. You don’t make peace with friends.
I had a friend who was very tech knowledgeable when I was growing up. We actually meet through pirate bbs’s back when that was a thing.
We both ended up in the tech industry.
You’ll notice I said had?
He ended up with paranoid schizophrenia. He also ended being hit by a train. It’s uncertain if the two were related, but given his other troubles, I think it was.
I’m super privacy conscious. I run everything on my private data center, no smart tvs, use aosp, the whole 9 yards. But you’re talking like my friend did right before he was diagnosed. Seeing connections with real things and real bad actors, but seeing connections that weren’t actually there, and thinking they were aimed at him…
How old are you? Mid twenties to early thirties? If so, please please consider the possibility that you are developing schizophrenia.
I wish I had tried harder to force him to get treatment.
I’m sorry if this is offensive and I’m completely wrong, but I am seeing a lot of red flags in this post that I wish I had known were red flags when I was younger.
This is wrong. Rwn.lol blocked threads.net months ago.
That is not the same logic at all. Attempted genocide or ethnic cleansing is based on the actions, not the speed of casualties.
900-1000 dead in a couple of hours just speaks to the utter incompetence (and sexism since the female signals analysis divisions were ignored while screaming something was going on) of the IOF. I also won’t count the Israelis that died due to the IOF’s invocation of the Hannibal directive. Israeli’s killed by Apache hellfire were not killed by Hamas.
Things like destroying good, water and power for the entire population indicate genocide. Being successful against an incompetent enemy, does not.
There are indications that Hamas fighters where not aware of the festival, and clear video evidence that Israeli soldiers (or security guards who were reservists, who count as military in my mind, since the IOF is willing to count every pencil pusher as a Hamas militant) engaged with the Al-Quds brigades from the crowds. I.e using the crowd as human shields in a far more literal sense then Israelis always apply to the Palestinians.
There is also video evidence of the stripped Palestinian men being led before IOF units in Gaza as human shields. Just like in Operation Cast Lead. And there are reports, though no video evidence, yet, of stripped Palestinian men being forced into the tunnel systems as human shields.
You know what isn’t using human shields? Existing as a militant force in the most densely populated place on earth.
You don’t get to force people into a bantustan then accuse the people fighting back as using human shields.
Finally, stop putting words in my mouth. Palestinian Jewish people exist, (and were treated as Palestinians, rather than Jewish people, but that is neither here nor there) as do children of the original Western European Jewish colonists. And yes, Zionists were colonists. That is literally what they called themselves when selling the idea of Zionism to antisemitic Europeans in search of financial backing. And yes, the Zionists were racist as well, even against other Jewish people. Tell me again, and don’t ignore this part, how are/were the Beta Israeli’s treated?
I shouldn’t have compared Israel to a plantation, you’re right. I should have compared it to a bantustan, because it is an apartheid society. Israel doesn’t use Palestinians as chattel slaves, it uses them (or did before importing people from other countries) as cheap, second class labor.
As such, the children born of Zionist parents belong there as much as white South Africans born in South Africa belonged in South Africa. The solution, since Israel intentionally made a two state solution impossible with the west bank settlements, is a single state with a massive truth and reconciliation process with war crimes trials for all that committed them, Palestinian and Israeli alike, with citizenship and equal rights for all.
Anything else is simply trying to justify maintaining apartheid.
Never Again meant Never Again. No qualifications or exceptions. Do you agree with that? Can we agree with that, or do you think never again only applied to Zionists?
They absolutely have been using male Gazans as human shield, which is something the IDF as been doing since operation Cast Lead.
You literally have the highest members of the Israel government planning to drive the people of Gaza into the Sinai desert, or force other nations to take them in.
You apparently have no idea what the words ‘Ethnic cleansing’ mean.
Also, there is no way you can stretch those words into anything that Oct 7th could reasonably be described as.
Apparently it doesn’t stop you from being misinformed either.
The IDF haven’t been doing any of that for this part of the war they’ve been waging for 17 years. It’s laughable that you think they have. Let’s go down the list of how wrong you are:
Telephone calls: there’s no power.
Messages: there’s no power.
Leaflets: they are doing this, but they’re also bombing the safe zones they tell people to go. There’s also no food, water, or shelter in the supposed safe zones.
TV: there’s no power.
Online services (HAH): there’s no power.
People are fucking worried about cholera cause there is no clean water, and the IDF is pumping salt water into the aquifers to destroy future clean water, too.
Oh, also, if you’re a male, the IDF will take you from the safe zones, strip you naked, and use you as a human shield, regardless of what you did for an occupation and call you hamas.
The only antisemitic asshole here is the person trying to link all Jewish people to the psycho nation trying to commit genocide at worst, and ethnic cleansing at best.
Hamas doesn’t embed itself. It IS the government. Everyone says Hamas and people think of the Hamas soldiers.
The health organizations that counted the dead while there still were hospitals? Hamas. However, that Hamas pencil pusher that has never picked up a gun will still have his apartment blown up because he is ‘Hamas’. It’s like complaining the DMV clerk is a marine because they’re both part of the American government.
And yes, war is terrible. It’s why after ww2 most of the nations agreed certain things were wrong and not allowed in war. You know, the things Israel is doing. The things that we’ve been blasting Russia for doing in Ukraine with words like ‘genocide’ and ‘war crimes’. Things like collective punishment, intentional targeting of civilian populations, using white phosphorus against civilians, intentionally starving civilians, intentionally depriving civilians under your control of water. These are all war crimes.
I’m not oblivious to the suffering. I have as much sympathy for them as I do for visitors to a slave plantation caught up in a slave uprising. Which is to say, some, but not too much. The blame should lay on the family that took their children to a plantation, knowing it was a plantation.
There is no moral standard that allows you to denounce Hamas, and yet praise the ANC during apartheid south Africa, or Nat Turners uprising, or John Brown at Harpers Ferry.
This is simple. It isn’t complex. You would have been on the side of apartheid south Africa because of the necklacing that the ANC did. You would have denounced the ickiness of John Browns attempts to stop slavery because he was just too violent. You would have denounced the Easter uprising, because it was too uncivil and the British were just there to civilize the Irish. I have no respect for people that justify apartheid or colonial oppression because the person struggling with a boot on their throat is too unseemly.
There is no compromise with someone standing on your throat. They need to remove their fucking foot before a discussion can even start.
This will go on for awhile, but Oct. 7th killed the myth of Israeli invincibility forever. The subsequent slaughter of civilians by the IDF, and all of the despicable lies about decapitated babies had killed Israels international reputation. Some things like Ethnic Cleansing are a bit too much to cover up.
P.S. the ADL spied on black anti apartheid activists in America for Israel on behalf of apartheid South Africa. It almost got the ADL banned in America. Israel was extremely friendly with Apartheid South Africa, even as most of the world was boycotting them, because Israel even then recognized that it was also an apartheid country. Oh, and South Africa let them test their nukes of the coastline.
It’s an act of defense against an occupying power that slaughters them when they try unarmed peaceful resistance. Remember two years ago? I do.
I’m also done interacting with someone who continues to ignore the 8000 dead children in two months because they know that that is morally indefensible.
They’re Holocaust deniers. No one said they were smart.
The point is, even if they were right with the numbers, it wouldn’t matter because the logic of the argument is wrong. Both ethically, and factually.
High birthrates are the natural human reaction to trauma such as war and generational thinning. Hint: remember, the population of Palestine under 18 was 52%
Just because you did a shitty job, or weren’t strong willed enough to follow through to completion, or did it slowly, doesn’t mean you didn’t try.
P.s. that word thinning? I didn’t pock that randomly. That’s what Israels political leaders call what they do.
‘Thinning the population’, and ‘mowing the grass’.
Wrong direction, and when the country you’re defending killed 8,000 children in two months, it’s not even funny.
Israel has no right to deny food or water to a place that they control the borders too. Thankfully, this isn’t something that requires your opinion. Blockading another country is an act of war. Occupying forces are required to provide required food and water to populations they occupy. Something Israel has been doing for 17 years.
The Egypt thing is a BS racist side argument and you know it. It is used to justify illegal actions on the part of Israel, with the full knowledge that the Rafa crossing is controlled by both Egypt and Israel, and really it’s controlled by the US. The second the Egyptian government at the time opened the Rafa border crossing, there would immediately be another Egyptian government taking its place.
Israel is an Apartheid state, exactly like Apartheid South Africa. It is as evil as Apartheid South Africa was. Desmond Tutu, and other black people that suffered under Apartheid South Africa rule that have visited Gaza have stated that the Palestinians have it worse in the Gaza strip then they had it under apartheid rule in South Africa.
Finally, to your question trying to justify ethnic cleansing: EVERY OCCUPYING POWER SINCE WW2. Israel is treated differently than every other county in that it doesn’t have to abide by the same standards as anyone else. Stop trying to pretend that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It isn’t. I’m not criticizing Egypt right now because they didn’t kill 8,000 children in two months. Come back with your “Why aren’t you critizing them” bullshit when they go free fire insane like Israel has.
Your wonderful country little democracy killed 8,000 children in 2 months. Stop trying to pretend that it is a reasonable country.
Yeah, how were the water resources in those lands? Were they capable of supporting the population being asked to depend on them.
I’ll save you the trip to the library. No, they weren’t.
Not agreeing to commit slow suicide doesn’t give the other side the right to murder you.
There were other groups that made the argument that that wasn’t genocide because the population of the target group increased.
You really want to make the same exact arguments holocaust deniers make?
They’re literally targeting all infrastructure that makes life possible in the strip. Not for Hamas, but for Palestinians.
They’re PUBLICLY talking about moving all Palestinians from the Gaza strip in the Sinai desert, or forcing other countries to take them in. That is LITERALLY the definition of ethnic cleansing. In those situations, especially the desert one, children die first. That’s the fucking point.
You’re being a smug asshole defending ethnic cleansing while literally pulling nothing but shit out of your ass.
Your numbers are off by an order of magnitude.
Delayed fascism that requires voting for someone who could stop genocide and ethnic cleansing with one phone call but doesn’t isn’t delayed fascism.
So, in that case, backing genocide was completely fucking idiotic to toy with.
Harm reduction arguments stop working when the harm reduction side STILL fucking backs genocide.
If that is the best we can do, and you expect me to be complicit with genocide by voting for someone who could stop it with one phone call but hasn’t, then maybe the system needs to break.
If you want to preserve it this system through genocide and ethnic cleansing, then that says something about your moral code, or lack thereof.
Recognize that the Palestinians are people with legitimate grievances and enter into peace dialogues with that at the front of your mind and the recognition that you will have to give an equal amount for what you ate asking them to give up.
Negotiate in good faith. It honestly isn’t a hard or complicated thought.
It only is complicated of you honestly believe Palestinians are less than you as a people.