This is awful, but far more nuanced than the comments.
Friendly fire happens in war, especially with an enemy who uses civilians as shields and seeks to maximize civilian deaths for PR. They are trained to attempt to appear as friendlies and civilians. And in the thick of combat, mistakes are easy to make.
This horrible situation is similar to when little kids were shot during the war in Iraq. Children were used as suicide bombers and more effective because they looked less like a threat. This tragically caused non-threat children to sometimes be mistakenly killed as well.
An enemy that uses children and civilians, like Hamas, is a horrible cancer in the world and must be eliminated and removed completely.
No one was using these clearly unarmed and surrendering hostages as human shields. You cannot use “accidental friendly fire” as an excuse for their murder.
Honest question; what incentive would the IDF have to knowingly kill escaped Israeli hostages? To me it only makes sense as a case of being far too willing to shoot first and ask questions later. That’s a problem, especially in such a dense urban environment, but it still is “accidental friendly fire” and not deliberate premeditated murder as your comment suggests.
The flipside is that we imagine that they knew the 3 Israeli hostages were trying to get back to friendly forces and decided to kill them anyway for… reasons, I guess? Nevermind that it’s hell on morale and obviously a PR disaster.
I don’t know, I just can’t make this pencil out as anything other than a tragic fuckup born of terrible discipline. If it tells us anything, it’s that the IDF are obviously trigger happy and not being at all careful, but again, that’s very different from the narrative being pushed by most people in this thread.
When your enemy does such things as common practice, it raises the probability that this will happen. Are you intentionally pretending to misunderstand to present a false narrative, or do you really not get it?
It becomes more and more apparent as time goes on.
Hamas tunnels existed under some infrastructure, better destroy all the infrastructure!
Hamas pretended to be journalists to spy, better kill all the journalists!
Hamas uses human shields, better kill all the human shields!
Hell, non-terrorist countries make their military buildings look like regular infrastructure frequently and embed intelligence gathering personnel with protected people like journalists to spy. The third one just sounds like propaganda against Hamas anyway since desperate people sacrificing themselves to defend their people would be seen as noble by anyone who agreed that they should be able to defend their people.
My favorite was when an IDF propaganda guy on a cable news network (CNN or something I can’t remember) just casually dropped that the tunnels under a hospital that the IDF points to all the time as proof that Hamas is pure evil were actually built by the IDF at some point.
The news anchor wasn’t trying to be pro-Palestinian but they were so totally confused they couldn’t help but be like…. wait what?
I’m not sure why no one has clearly mentioned this in the news articles about Israel lying to reporters about evidence for the tunnels. But every modern urban area is riddled with tunnels. Saying they’re harboring bad guys is just an excuse to blow up everything.
But isn’t the thing you are saying what Israel’s government wants you to say? How is that any different? Israel is the side of killing children everyday. Their leader is not a good and honest man like he pretends to be but I wish he was. Just before this didn’t he strip checks and balances that were meant to keep him in line? You can love Israel and not like their leadership. I think he is a dangerous man and should go.
Bibi and other members of Likud are war criminals. Don’t look to me to defend them. I want to see them prosecuted for the many war crimes prior to October.
Feel free.to check my comment history, I don’t waver on this.
Saying Israel is the side of killing children, though, is a talking point written by Hamas. And yes, they are responsible for many deaths by design to outrage people in the hopes of sparking a wider war. Hiding behind the children they have gotten killed is actually a war crim itself, co-location.
Careful parroting Hamas talking points.No sane person wants to kill children. Which is how you know Hamas is insane and must be eliminated. .
Bold of you to assume Likud are sane. They’re dealing with “human animals”, remember? They are happy to kill Palestinian children.
To the main point: there is no excuse for this murder of surrendering civilians. Even if your enemy has the specific tactic of sending its combatants in shirtless and waving a white flag (Hamas don’t) then you still aren’t allowed to kill them, because people still need to be able to surrender.
This is what I keep saying. Making up a story that’s countered by the facts won’t change the facts.
It’s not trolling to inject facts and reason to hateful propaganda and false narratives. But when that is inconvenient to the lies, I can understand why pretending that’s the case is the next step down.
To avoid personal attacks like yours, in possible violation of the rules, I’ll just leave it there.
My “personal attacks” are direct criticisms of your behaviour. I’m not calling you names, I’m calling you out for what you’re doing.
This article is about IDF soldiers killing hostages. Your reponse was:
Friendly fire happens in war, especially with an enemy who uses civilians as shields and seeks to maximize civilian deaths for PR.
My reply was that these hostages did everything they could to demonstrate they weren’t hostile, yet they were still executed by soliders. That is a war crime. There is no excusing that as friendly fire. Even if they weren’t hostages, the IDF should not have executed them, and doing so was the crime of murder regardless of their affiliation.
That isn’t the war crime of IDF leaders or of Bibi, that is the war crime of the soldiers that committed the act, and their commanding officers. The leaders only have a superfluous responsibility, easily obfuscated by varied interpretations of terminology. In other words, if you pass it off up the chain of command you end up with no one being responsible.
The thing happened. The person who did it is 100% responsible. The person in charge of the person who did it is also responsible, to some lesser degree. The person in charge of the military is also responsible, maybe not as much as the person who did it but perhaps more than their immediate commander, given the type of propaganda the person in charge passed down.
I think you’re trying to pass up responsibility to those that won’t face any of it, in an effort to exonerate those who are actually responsible on the ground.
My argument is that everyone involved is responsible and all of them should be held suitably to account.
Your arms tired from carrying all this water for the IDF? They fucked up due to their lax rules of engagement and now some of their own citizens are dead instead of Gazan civilians who don’t have a new story written about them every time a group of them are murdered by the IDF. Hamas didn’t kill these people no matter how much you try to apply your tortured logic to this situation.
If they were intentionally killing civilians, they wouldn’t waste their lives with troops on the ground. And the numbers dead would literally be in the hundreds of thousands to millions. They have the power to project that kind of devastation but don’t in order to minimize civilian deaths.
They’re fighting in the densest urban combat theater of recent memory. Their enemy (hamas) is intent on causing as many civilian casualties as possible for PR so that slow thinkers can claim moral outrage and be oblivious to falling prey to the tactic.
With the combat going on there and the enemy operating from civilian locations intentionally to draw fire there, it’s surprising it’s not higher.
Apparently fast thinker think 15k death from all those dumb bomb that Israel openly admit it’s purely for maximising destruction is not high enough to proof they aren’t intentionally collectively punish all Gazan.
If this was before October’s attack, you would have a more compelling case. But Israel is not doing it jn a vacuum, and that’s if we ignore THOUSANDS of rockets lauched at civilians year after year.
It’s bad form to tell someone what they think, but it is telling also.
So they can throw a few people under the bus and let the most prolific offenders get away with things?
Apparently there was one Nazi on trial in the UK, he slipped through the net of Ben Ferencz (the man responsible for making what few trials we had happen). He was tried in the UK, sentenced to death, then Winston Churchill himself (who had helped finance his legal defence) had his sentenced commuted to life in prison. His sentence was later reduced down to like 20 years and he was let go free. All of this was allegedly because Churchill hated the Soviets more and really wanted to go to war with Russia immediately after WW2. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find the name of this Nazi - I read it in a long article around the time of Ferencz’s death, then found a Wikipedia article about the Nazi by name (which may well have been scrubbed, Wikipedia doesn’t like articles about individuals and prefers articles about events). However it’s an interesting facet of the atrocities that were allowed to go by without facing justice, so long as the victors could profit from them, similar to all the rocket scientists and Japanese medical research that the US acquired.
How is the first thing I’ve said stupid? The Nuremburg trials were indeed groundbreaking, but they didn’t really hold the most responsible to account. They stepped down the ladder and held the people they could to account.
It wasn’t right when our people killed children, it’s still not right when Israel does it, it will continue to be wrong when the next batch of cowards that think their adult lives are more important than children’s lives.
If you are so scared that you have to kill babies and children, you should not be a soldier.
If your first reaction to a white flag is to shit your pants and empty your gun, you are a coward and a waste of human life.
I am glad for your place of privilege where you can judge and condem without needing reason or experiencing the nuances involved here. Would you also like to talk to their manager?
Close quarters urban combat doesn’t happen like a turn based video game where you get to slowly decide your every move with the luxury of thinking through every move and variable. In fact, it’s full of chaos, uncertainty, adrenaline, and mistakes–tragic mistakes happen. Nobody is celebrating it, but you are condemning it from the safety of your keyboard
… wow.
Yep I condemned it when America did it. Why should I want anyone else get away with it?
If you are so much of a coward, did you shoot someone with a white flag in their hands you are a waste of human life.
If you think that your revenge is worth more than human lives, children’s lives of all damn things, you’re a cowardly piece of fucking shit and a waste of space on my planet, and when you die, I will be happier for the fact that you are not here using up my resources, do you know with you being a child killer and all, and you will be one of the few deaths that I ever celebrate.
The fact that you would reference the inhumane slaughter of children during the Iraq war as a defense of the inhumane slaughter of innocent civilians in this exact context is absurdly oblivious to the reason those children were inhumanely slaughtered to begin with.
It wasn’t just a tragedy. It was an outrage. They shot kids cause they were Muslims. They shot them because they were black and brown. No part of it was a mistake. The soldiers and mercenaries deployed there by the United States military were racist. They were indoctrinated with racist ideology and literally told that the lives of literal children were expendable and, in fact, should be expended.
You unknowingly made the perfect comparison. The IDF is literally doing that exact thing. They’re spreading the same racism, the same Islamophobia, the same violent hatred. Which is exactly why they are just as condemnable and should face serious consequences for committing acts of mass violence against civilians - against literally children. This isn’t a mistake. It’s not an accident. You don’t bomb innocent men women and children for 2 months straight by accident.
It’s so insanely ahistorical, so utterly unaware of its own biases, so flagrantly dismissive of a the seriousness of the crimes being committed that I’m almost inclined to just call your post pointlessly inflammatory and intentionally cruel and walk away. But people are actually using the excuses you are in real life. With real lives involved. And so I think even if it were true that you’re just here to start a pointless argument, it is still worth it to respond to you. So that the people exposed to your propagandizing can see it for what it is.
Hi, Indoctrinated Racist Monster Iraqi vet here. I nearly got a court martial for firing a warning shot. Please tell me more about how we apparently went on hunting expeditions of local kids? I think the most harm I ever did to one was when I accidently hit him with an MRE he was literally begging for.
In fact I was around locals everyday. They would walk up and talk to us all the time. We would pay the kids two dollars to get us falafel and chicken pitas. (One to go and pay with, and one for them when they got back.)
In the invasion period in 2003 locals were allowed to pass through our lines. In fact we preferred that because we could ask them for information. The food and refugee stuff wasn’t conditional on them helping us but it turns out if you help a refugee they’ll happily tell you where the enemy is.
What Israel is doing is what we would have called a “free fire zone”. Which is not supposed to be used in urban areas with a lot of civilians. It’s for areas that have few, if any, civilians and are also supposed to be time limited. And even then you still want to not shoot at civilians because it’s a tactical mistake. Two infantry units fighting each other are quite often just waiting for the other one to give away their location. What Israel is doing is a war crime by American standards. They have quite obviously declared the entirety of Gaza a free fire zone with no ROE.
The blackwater guys, yeah. They literally had no accountability and it was setup that way on purpose. The actual military? It was rooting criminals out zealously. Please don’t conflate the two.
They shot suicide bombers who happened to be children who would have killed them. The criminals were the people (often Muslims) who groomed these kids and intentionally created the situation in the hopes of kneejerk unreasonable criticism like yours above.
You think because they were children, the soldiers should have allowed themselves to be killed? That makes sense considering your stance on what Hamas is doing.
It’s not racism and Islamophobia. Hamas operates this way and creates the situation with the intent to outrage non-thinkers and people with diminished capacity to reason.
I’m not devolving this into an endless cycle of you reiterating the same propaganda espoused by zionism. I have no interest in platforming you. But I will respond to this sentence in particular.
“You think because they were children, the soldiers should have allowed themselves to be killed?”
But they weren’t in any danger, were they? They saw a brown kid and shot them. Killing black and brown people is an American institution. America and its military are racist. They are Islamophobic. Muslims were literally portrayed as terrorists so pervasively in our media that Muslim people existing in public get murdered on a routine basis across the country. The American soldiers and hired mercenaries there literally went on killing sprees up and down the country mass murdering innocent families. They made impromptu mass concentration and torture camps. They laughed at what they did. They thoroughly enjoyed it. We made video games and movies and tv shows about it because the narrative was so pervasive that killing Muslims became a popular American pass time.
Again, you’re spot on comparing the mass murder of innocent civilians in the Iraq war to the ongoing slaughter of innocent civilians in Palestine. Just not at all in the way you think.
Yes. They were in danger. And it’s okay to defend your life. I have a friend who almost shot a child in this very situation when they were serving. To this day, he has PTSD and counciling for the trauma. NOBODY wants to shoot a kid or anyone else for that matter unless they’re seriously sick.
Fortunately, many failed and efforts to combat that recruitment helped.
Gaza is like if that effort had succeeded and geared up for years and years. Where 57% of the civilians support what you’re doing and are sympathetic.
It’s a good comparison. I just don’t agree that people, even Israelis, should have to lay down their lives because Al Quesa or Hamas radicalizes illegal combatants.
The rest of your accusations, I’ll leave unaddressed. They don’t warrant a response.
This is awful, but far more nuanced than the comments.
Friendly fire happens in war, especially with an enemy who uses civilians as shields and seeks to maximize civilian deaths for PR. They are trained to attempt to appear as friendlies and civilians. And in the thick of combat, mistakes are easy to make.
This horrible situation is similar to when little kids were shot during the war in Iraq. Children were used as suicide bombers and more effective because they looked less like a threat. This tragically caused non-threat children to sometimes be mistakenly killed as well.
An enemy that uses children and civilians, like Hamas, is a horrible cancer in the world and must be eliminated and removed completely.
No one was using these clearly unarmed and surrendering hostages as human shields. You cannot use “accidental friendly fire” as an excuse for their murder.
Honest question; what incentive would the IDF have to knowingly kill escaped Israeli hostages? To me it only makes sense as a case of being far too willing to shoot first and ask questions later. That’s a problem, especially in such a dense urban environment, but it still is “accidental friendly fire” and not deliberate premeditated murder as your comment suggests.
The flipside is that we imagine that they knew the 3 Israeli hostages were trying to get back to friendly forces and decided to kill them anyway for… reasons, I guess? Nevermind that it’s hell on morale and obviously a PR disaster.
I don’t know, I just can’t make this pencil out as anything other than a tragic fuckup born of terrible discipline. If it tells us anything, it’s that the IDF are obviously trigger happy and not being at all careful, but again, that’s very different from the narrative being pushed by most people in this thread.
When your enemy does such things as common practice, it raises the probability that this will happen. Are you intentionally pretending to misunderstand to present a false narrative, or do you really not get it?
I think the IDF uses this as an excuse to kill anyone
It becomes more and more apparent as time goes on.
Hamas tunnels existed under some infrastructure, better destroy all the infrastructure!
Hamas pretended to be journalists to spy, better kill all the journalists!
Hamas uses human shields, better kill all the human shields!
Hell, non-terrorist countries make their military buildings look like regular infrastructure frequently and embed intelligence gathering personnel with protected people like journalists to spy. The third one just sounds like propaganda against Hamas anyway since desperate people sacrificing themselves to defend their people would be seen as noble by anyone who agreed that they should be able to defend their people.
My favorite was when an IDF propaganda guy on a cable news network (CNN or something I can’t remember) just casually dropped that the tunnels under a hospital that the IDF points to all the time as proof that Hamas is pure evil were actually built by the IDF at some point.
The news anchor wasn’t trying to be pro-Palestinian but they were so totally confused they couldn’t help but be like…. wait what?
I’m not sure why no one has clearly mentioned this in the news articles about Israel lying to reporters about evidence for the tunnels. But every modern urban area is riddled with tunnels. Saying they’re harboring bad guys is just an excuse to blow up everything.
That’s just an excuse for murder you should stop making that excuse for them. It’s not ok
Exactly what Hamas wants you to say. They appreciate your support.
But isn’t the thing you are saying what Israel’s government wants you to say? How is that any different? Israel is the side of killing children everyday. Their leader is not a good and honest man like he pretends to be but I wish he was. Just before this didn’t he strip checks and balances that were meant to keep him in line? You can love Israel and not like their leadership. I think he is a dangerous man and should go.
Bibi and other members of Likud are war criminals. Don’t look to me to defend them. I want to see them prosecuted for the many war crimes prior to October.
Feel free.to check my comment history, I don’t waver on this.
Saying Israel is the side of killing children, though, is a talking point written by Hamas. And yes, they are responsible for many deaths by design to outrage people in the hopes of sparking a wider war. Hiding behind the children they have gotten killed is actually a war crim itself, co-location.
Careful parroting Hamas talking points.No sane person wants to kill children. Which is how you know Hamas is insane and must be eliminated. .
Bold of you to assume Likud are sane. They’re dealing with “human animals”, remember? They are happy to kill Palestinian children.
To the main point: there is no excuse for this murder of surrendering civilians. Even if your enemy has the specific tactic of sending its combatants in shirtless and waving a white flag (Hamas don’t) then you still aren’t allowed to kill them, because people still need to be able to surrender.
As I’ve said many times, I don’t defend or support Likud. They were war criminals before the October attack.
Throwing mud at people first, accusing them of doing the very thing you always do.
Your narratives are clearly false upon the first reading of them, your only goal is to be inciteful and troll people.
Frankly, all of your comments are in breach of instance rules, from what I can see.
This is what I keep saying. Making up a story that’s countered by the facts won’t change the facts.
It’s not trolling to inject facts and reason to hateful propaganda and false narratives. But when that is inconvenient to the lies, I can understand why pretending that’s the case is the next step down.
To avoid personal attacks like yours, in possible violation of the rules, I’ll just leave it there.
My “personal attacks” are direct criticisms of your behaviour. I’m not calling you names, I’m calling you out for what you’re doing.
This article is about IDF soldiers killing hostages. Your reponse was:
My reply was that these hostages did everything they could to demonstrate they weren’t hostile, yet they were still executed by soliders. That is a war crime. There is no excusing that as friendly fire. Even if they weren’t hostages, the IDF should not have executed them, and doing so was the crime of murder regardless of their affiliation.
That isn’t the war crime of IDF leaders or of Bibi, that is the war crime of the soldiers that committed the act, and their commanding officers. The leaders only have a superfluous responsibility, easily obfuscated by varied interpretations of terminology. In other words, if you pass it off up the chain of command you end up with no one being responsible.
The thing happened. The person who did it is 100% responsible. The person in charge of the person who did it is also responsible, to some lesser degree. The person in charge of the military is also responsible, maybe not as much as the person who did it but perhaps more than their immediate commander, given the type of propaganda the person in charge passed down.
I think you’re trying to pass up responsibility to those that won’t face any of it, in an effort to exonerate those who are actually responsible on the ground.
My argument is that everyone involved is responsible and all of them should be held suitably to account.
🤮
Funny. I was a soldier in Iraq and I don’t remember shooting people for having the temerity to approach me with a white flag.
Oh yeah that’s right we had a whole standard operating procedure to clear them and then get them to an IDP/Refugee camp.
Hand waiving what is obviously a shoot first ROE is ridiculous. You can absolutely tell whose a civilian and refrain from shooting them.
Your arms tired from carrying all this water for the IDF? They fucked up due to their lax rules of engagement and now some of their own citizens are dead instead of Gazan civilians who don’t have a new story written about them every time a group of them are murdered by the IDF. Hamas didn’t kill these people no matter how much you try to apply your tortured logic to this situation.
You’re Hamas’s favorite kind of dupe.
You don’t get to hand wave away war crimes just because Hamas sucks too
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edit: You have to do it like this to get the left arm to look right, just FYI.
¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯Emm, how does it look in kbin? Looks fine on my end.
Sorry, it didn’t even occur to me that it might be kbin specific - it was like that at reddit too, needing to escape the slash
This is on my desktop browser…
Hmm, because i did have 3 slashes and it came out just fine, just wondering what it looks like on kbin
Huh, that’s interesting! A difference I wouldn’t have expected.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
;-)
If they were intentionally killing civilians, they wouldn’t waste their lives with troops on the ground. And the numbers dead would literally be in the hundreds of thousands to millions. They have the power to project that kind of devastation but don’t in order to minimize civilian deaths.
They’re fighting in the densest urban combat theater of recent memory. Their enemy (hamas) is intent on causing as many civilian casualties as possible for PR so that slow thinkers can claim moral outrage and be oblivious to falling prey to the tactic.
With the combat going on there and the enemy operating from civilian locations intentionally to draw fire there, it’s surprising it’s not higher.
Apparently fast thinker think 15k death from all those dumb bomb that Israel openly admit it’s purely for maximising destruction is not high enough to proof they aren’t intentionally collectively punish all Gazan.
If this was before October’s attack, you would have a more compelling case. But Israel is not doing it jn a vacuum, and that’s if we ignore THOUSANDS of rockets lauched at civilians year after year.
It’s bad form to tell someone what they think, but it is telling also.
Yeah, let’s just ignore that historically Israel has killed 20 Palestinians for each Israeli killed.
Apparently fast thinker also think Hamas attack happened in a vacuum.
Apparently terrorist supporter is going to attempt justification of war crimes and terrorism–as expected.
Apparently being appalled by the action of facist is considered terrorist supporter.
Nice way to rationalize. Almost ready for a trial, Nuremberg would be ok for a location?
But your honor! My highly convenient claim makes it so that I MUST kill children. Surely you agree?!
So they can throw a few people under the bus and let the most prolific offenders get away with things?
Apparently there was one Nazi on trial in the UK, he slipped through the net of Ben Ferencz (the man responsible for making what few trials we had happen). He was tried in the UK, sentenced to death, then Winston Churchill himself (who had helped finance his legal defence) had his sentenced commuted to life in prison. His sentence was later reduced down to like 20 years and he was let go free. All of this was allegedly because Churchill hated the Soviets more and really wanted to go to war with Russia immediately after WW2. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find the name of this Nazi - I read it in a long article around the time of Ferencz’s death, then found a Wikipedia article about the Nazi by name (which may well have been scrubbed, Wikipedia doesn’t like articles about individuals and prefers articles about events). However it’s an interesting facet of the atrocities that were allowed to go by without facing justice, so long as the victors could profit from them, similar to all the rocket scientists and Japanese medical research that the US acquired.
I’m sorry, if you start with something that I consider stupid you can’t expect me to read the rest.
How is the first thing I’ve said stupid? The Nuremburg trials were indeed groundbreaking, but they didn’t really hold the most responsible to account. They stepped down the ladder and held the people they could to account.
It wasn’t right when our people killed children, it’s still not right when Israel does it, it will continue to be wrong when the next batch of cowards that think their adult lives are more important than children’s lives.
If you are so scared that you have to kill babies and children, you should not be a soldier.
If your first reaction to a white flag is to shit your pants and empty your gun, you are a coward and a waste of human life.
I am glad for your place of privilege where you can judge and condem without needing reason or experiencing the nuances involved here. Would you also like to talk to their manager?
Close quarters urban combat doesn’t happen like a turn based video game where you get to slowly decide your every move with the luxury of thinking through every move and variable. In fact, it’s full of chaos, uncertainty, adrenaline, and mistakes–tragic mistakes happen. Nobody is celebrating it, but you are condemning it from the safety of your keyboard … wow.
Yep I condemned it when America did it. Why should I want anyone else get away with it?
If you are so much of a coward, did you shoot someone with a white flag in their hands you are a waste of human life.
If you think that your revenge is worth more than human lives, children’s lives of all damn things, you’re a cowardly piece of fucking shit and a waste of space on my planet, and when you die, I will be happier for the fact that you are not here using up my resources, do you know with you being a child killer and all, and you will be one of the few deaths that I ever celebrate.
The fact that you would reference the inhumane slaughter of children during the Iraq war as a defense of the inhumane slaughter of innocent civilians in this exact context is absurdly oblivious to the reason those children were inhumanely slaughtered to begin with.
It wasn’t just a tragedy. It was an outrage. They shot kids cause they were Muslims. They shot them because they were black and brown. No part of it was a mistake. The soldiers and mercenaries deployed there by the United States military were racist. They were indoctrinated with racist ideology and literally told that the lives of literal children were expendable and, in fact, should be expended.
You unknowingly made the perfect comparison. The IDF is literally doing that exact thing. They’re spreading the same racism, the same Islamophobia, the same violent hatred. Which is exactly why they are just as condemnable and should face serious consequences for committing acts of mass violence against civilians - against literally children. This isn’t a mistake. It’s not an accident. You don’t bomb innocent men women and children for 2 months straight by accident.
It’s so insanely ahistorical, so utterly unaware of its own biases, so flagrantly dismissive of a the seriousness of the crimes being committed that I’m almost inclined to just call your post pointlessly inflammatory and intentionally cruel and walk away. But people are actually using the excuses you are in real life. With real lives involved. And so I think even if it were true that you’re just here to start a pointless argument, it is still worth it to respond to you. So that the people exposed to your propagandizing can see it for what it is.
Hi,
Indoctrinated Racist MonsterIraqi vet here. I nearly got a court martial for firing a warning shot. Please tell me more about how we apparently went on hunting expeditions of local kids? I think the most harm I ever did to one was when I accidently hit him with an MRE he was literally begging for.In fact I was around locals everyday. They would walk up and talk to us all the time. We would pay the kids two dollars to get us falafel and chicken pitas. (One to go and pay with, and one for them when they got back.)
In the invasion period in 2003 locals were allowed to pass through our lines. In fact we preferred that because we could ask them for information. The food and refugee stuff wasn’t conditional on them helping us but it turns out if you help a refugee they’ll happily tell you where the enemy is.
What Israel is doing is what we would have called a “free fire zone”. Which is not supposed to be used in urban areas with a lot of civilians. It’s for areas that have few, if any, civilians and are also supposed to be time limited. And even then you still want to not shoot at civilians because it’s a tactical mistake. Two infantry units fighting each other are quite often just waiting for the other one to give away their location. What Israel is doing is a war crime by American standards. They have quite obviously declared the entirety of Gaza a free fire zone with no ROE.
This was an interesting read. Thanks.
Thanks for the perspective! So the people saying the US did it, so Israel can do it too, are even more wrong than I thought!
Your one experience does not invalidate the many atrocities committed against innocent civilians. Both by US army and contracted mercenaries.
The blackwater guys, yeah. They literally had no accountability and it was setup that way on purpose. The actual military? It was rooting criminals out zealously. Please don’t conflate the two.
They shot suicide bombers who happened to be children who would have killed them. The criminals were the people (often Muslims) who groomed these kids and intentionally created the situation in the hopes of kneejerk unreasonable criticism like yours above.
You think because they were children, the soldiers should have allowed themselves to be killed? That makes sense considering your stance on what Hamas is doing.
It’s not racism and Islamophobia. Hamas operates this way and creates the situation with the intent to outrage non-thinkers and people with diminished capacity to reason.
You’re outraged, but at the wrong people, though.
I’m not devolving this into an endless cycle of you reiterating the same propaganda espoused by zionism. I have no interest in platforming you. But I will respond to this sentence in particular.
“You think because they were children, the soldiers should have allowed themselves to be killed?”
But they weren’t in any danger, were they? They saw a brown kid and shot them. Killing black and brown people is an American institution. America and its military are racist. They are Islamophobic. Muslims were literally portrayed as terrorists so pervasively in our media that Muslim people existing in public get murdered on a routine basis across the country. The American soldiers and hired mercenaries there literally went on killing sprees up and down the country mass murdering innocent families. They made impromptu mass concentration and torture camps. They laughed at what they did. They thoroughly enjoyed it. We made video games and movies and tv shows about it because the narrative was so pervasive that killing Muslims became a popular American pass time.
Again, you’re spot on comparing the mass murder of innocent civilians in the Iraq war to the ongoing slaughter of innocent civilians in Palestine. Just not at all in the way you think.
Yes. They were in danger. And it’s okay to defend your life. I have a friend who almost shot a child in this very situation when they were serving. To this day, he has PTSD and counciling for the trauma. NOBODY wants to shoot a kid or anyone else for that matter unless they’re seriously sick.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/dec/04/iraq-alqaida-network-child-bombers
Fortunately, many failed and efforts to combat that recruitment helped.
Gaza is like if that effort had succeeded and geared up for years and years. Where 57% of the civilians support what you’re doing and are sympathetic.
It’s a good comparison. I just don’t agree that people, even Israelis, should have to lay down their lives because Al Quesa or Hamas radicalizes illegal combatants.
The rest of your accusations, I’ll leave unaddressed. They don’t warrant a response.
No one believes you, walk away and have a lie down
That nuance argument line of hours or the window when the Israeli government says the rules of engagement were violated.
Also, friendly fire is when the military goes on friendly military. These were hostages.